Need Sales Training? Let’s Sit Down and Talk about it
The following is the rough transcript of a recent call I had with a Sales Director of a large Irish Company.
Mr X: Hi Niall, This is _________ __________, I am the Sales Director with ___________ ___________ What I’m looking for a two day sales training course to brush up on our selling skills. What would that cost?
Me: Hi __________, thanks for your call, let me briefly tell you about what we do. We specialise in providing bespoke in-house sales training solutions. We invest a lot of time in identifying how best we can help, come up with a plan to achieve sales results, and build a training programme around this. Can you first tell me a little about the company, what you sell, to who and what prompted you to call me at this time?
Mr X: We sell _____________ to _____________; we have a team of 20 field based salespeople. The salespeople feel that they would benefit from some sales training; times are tough and they believe that it would help them to make more sales.
Me: Great, Let’s hold that last thought “to make more sales” what I would like to do next with your permission, is for us to meet up, introduce myself and Btb training, how we work and investigate with you, if and how our sales training solutions can help to make more sales. How would sometime next week suit?
Mr X: Frankly, Niall, I don’t see that there is any need, what I am looking for is a two day sales training course, plain and simple. Can you send me a proposal including costs? All the other training companies were able to; they didn’t need to meet up.
Me: I understand but again our focus is ensuring actual results, so let me explain to you why I feel that it is necessary for us to meet up. If the overall objective of this process is to increase sales, I do not yet know how I can help, and even if I can help, the training solution I might recommend will likely be different to a two-day course on basic selling skills. This first meeting allows me an opportunity to investigate, to better get to know you, the company, the problems and the solutions. In short, if I can help and how I can help. I cannot commit to a project unless I have established this, in other words I will need to be sure that I can deliver ROI. This first meeting is very much for my benefit, and hence there is no fee, nor is it a commitment to do business. I will only seek that commitment after I have demonstrated that I can help to increase sales.
Mr X: I think what you are saying is that you want an opportunity to increase your price?
Me: LOL, __________ it is highly lightly that the overall solution that I will recommend will require more than two days training, so yes, this would mean more cost. We tend to work with clients on an ongoing basis. I would be taking a long-term view point, that being said, new clients generally will hire us to first, do a stand alone project. The reality is that unless you see results, you won’t rehire and we are happy to work with you on this basis. Can I ask, what has been your experience of other trainers?
Mr X: I think that sales training every now and then, is good to remind salespeople about the right ways of doing things and to motivate, but after a while it’s forgotten and you need to start again.
Me: You are absolutely right, traditional sales training focuses on imparting knowledge; so much of what is taught is quickly forgotten. That is why you find you have to retrain the same skills over and over. We would take a different approach, in that we would create long-behaviour led changes, with each course looking to build on and teach new skills. I also agree that sales training needs to be ongoing. As part of or meet, I would like to continue to discuss these training experiences, and identify how we can ensure a longer-term skills change.
Mr X: For now, I just need a proposal for two days training with costs and names of who you have worked with. If we are interested, I can come back to you about the meeting.
Me: I’m afraid I won’t be able to put together a proposal at this stage, for the reasons I have already mentioned. I can however give you names and numbers of some clients in your space. Perhaps, I could set up a call so that you can have a conversation with them about our approach, and how it compares to other training providers. How does that sound?
Mr X: I will only be interested in talking to references after we had made a decision to go ahead with whomever.
Me: OK, I’m sorry then, I don’t think that there is much more I can say at this stage, if you change your mind or if you would like to consider a different approach next time, please do let me know. I will send you an e-mail to recap on our conversation and include my contact details. Thanks for your call.
Mr X: We are in a recession, you are supposedly a top sales trainer and you refuse to quote for potential business. Think you are in the wrong business, Niall. Goodbye.
I have tried to be as truthful as I can about what was said. My initial thoughts were that the individual, because of previous bad sales training experiences, has no faith in sales training as a solution. He is possibly being requested by the sales-team to provide training and is looking for the cheapest available option.
I took the call on my mobile, walking to and from meetings, perhaps I could have taken a different approach, but I get the feeling that the net result would have been the same.
I have received a large number of these types of calls since I became a trainer. Some might say that “the customer is always right” but I will continue to refuse to quote for sales training until I have established that I can help. It’s just a pity that more training providers don’t have the courage to do the same.
Over at TSE 2.0 today.
One of the most clued-in business consultants on the planet, Dave Brock of Partners In EXCELLENCE. Listen as Dave talks Counter-intuitive:
Rather than driving harder and faster, do we really need to take a step back and evaluate how we can do things better.
Like what you hear, Well why not come and join us.
Published by Niall Devitt, Btb Business Training
Tags: Dave Brock, sales courses, sales training, sales training ireland, sales training ROI
March 12th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
This put a smile on my face this afternoon - it’s a conversation all sales training consultants have had around the world. Good work!
March 12th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Thanks Ian, Good to hear that is not just me
March 12th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Good to read from a sales trainer that walks the talk.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Hi Christian,
Thanks for your comment. Loved listening to your insightful interview over at TSE today.
Thanks,
Niall
March 12th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
[...] precisely how sales leaders go about buying sales training the wrong way. The post, entitled Need Sales Training? Let’s Sit Down and Talk About It is well worth reading. Niall sets an example for sales trainers as well. I commend him on his [...]
March 17th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Niall,
Great post. I’ve been through that conversation myself many times. I also will sometimes ask the potential client, “If this was your salesperson, would you want them to blindly respond to a price quote request without knowing anything about the customer at all?”
Sometimes, not always, that will stop them in their tracks.
Continued good luck,
David Stargel
VP Sales
The Complex Sale
http://www.complexsale.com
March 17th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Hi David,
Thanks for your insight, That’s a super tip and a great question to ask. Ill will definitely be using it.
Cheers,
Niall
March 19th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Niall, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had exactly this same conversation with prospects calling for sales training quotations over the last few months. It seems that in a tough economy, too many sales managers are reacting reflexively — sales are bad, so let’s… get some training / get a new CRM system / get a new compensation plan / get a new marketing campaign / get a new _________. Too many people are looking for that magic formula that will instantly fix their sales woes. One prospect demanded that I give them a quote over the phone even though they refused to tell me anything about their business — “We’ve got 20 people, what do you charge for a 2-day training program?” I explained that I’d like to get some more information first, but he steadfastly refused to cooperate. Finally, I asked him, “How would you like your own people to respond to a question like that from your potential customers? Just give a price, without really diagnosing their situation, goals and needs?” He got mad, and ended the call. Perhaps I was being too direct. I’m still struggling how best to answer these kinds of “price first” inquiries, before getting the necessary information. But we’d be doing the customer a disservice if we didn’t follow good business practices.
March 19th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Hi Tim,
Thanks for your input. The point about the tough economy is well made. Sales training is a long term commitment. Sporadic two day courses without investigating the real problems is akin to flushing training budgets down the drain, yet many persist. Training without purpose is of little more benefit that no training.
What gets me is that these are often the same people that complain that training intervention doesn’t work.
The training companies that roll out out of the box stuff to whoever need to take much of the responsibility.
Keep up the good fight.
Niall
May 19th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Need Sales Training, Let’s Talk about it….
The following is the rough transcript of a recent call I had with a Sales Director of a large Irish Company.
Mr X: Hi Niall, This is _________ __________, I am the Sales Director with ___________ ___________ What I’m looking for a two day sales trai…
May 19th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Niall, that’s a terrific post. I’ve had pretty much the same conversations and I always ask: “What do you want the result of this training to be?” It’s astonishing how many of the callers can’t answer that one, or talk about just wanting ‘a bit of training’. My niche is competitive tendering, which needs a blend of sales skills, writing skills, psychology and mind reading in addition to being able to come up with a solution and a price, and yet people expect their staff to be able to tender for business worth millions from a standing start and from a two day course (and naturally there’s the other response that you haven’t put here - ‘Can’t you do it in a day?’)
I take pretty much the same stance as you, stick to my guns and my proposition and am prepared to walk away. Strangely it’s a stance that is often successful.
Stick with it everyone.
Anne
May 19th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Hi Anne,
Thanks so much for your kind words.
I agree with you, it’s often successful but often - only after the particular company has spent a lot of money with some silver bullet merchant.
I find it frustrating, but as you say - sticking to your guns is all that you can do.
Thanks again,
Niall
May 19th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Hi Niall,
I’d agree with you generally - and certainly wouldn’t do a proposal without a clear, agreed understanding of what the customer needs (and I’d prefer not to do a proposal at all).
However, I would consider giving the client a ballpark range for how much a 2-day course would cost if it turned out that that was what was needed.
In this case I don’t think it would have made any difference. The guy seemed to view sales training as some sort of generic “magic sauce” you could could sprinkle on your sales team to improve their performance without needing to tailor it to their needs.
Rgds
Ian
May 19th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Hey Ian, you are possibly right.
At the same time, he needed to buy into my process, or I needed to be able to sell it to him (which I couldn’t) You said it, he wanted a magic sauce, and as far as he was concerned, he was getting it from others. I used to waste time with these types of prospects when I started out, but quickly learnt that unless the clients understands what can be achieved and in what time-scales - it rarely works for either of us.
Kind Regards,
Niall
May 19th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Ugh! I understand your approach and wouldn’t argue with refusing a specific quote when you really have no idea what they need or whether or not you can provide it. Unfortunately, I think there are MANY, less intelligent sales people out there dancing around the price questions, driving potential clients nuts and driving people away.
If you have a specific process that you’ve built to allow you to be effective in your work…by ALL MEANS, stick with it, stick to it and don’t allow the prospect of a sale to pull you away from what works. It sounds like the man who called doesn’t fit the characteristics of a good client for your firm anyway (his view of sales training as a two-day pump-up meeting vs. your long-term view of the work and relationship.)
That being said, price inquiries are valid and deserve an answer. Clients are trying to figure out if you’re in a range that AT ALL matches their budget. We’ve all been the victim (both as buyer AND seller) of long, detailed conversations that end with a shocked moment where the two parties find out they are world’s apart on price.
INSTEAD…offer potential clients a range that your services are likely to fall into. You’ll leave yourself room to charge appropriately for the work involved AND give them a sense of what they might be signing up for. You can save hours of frustration and time wasted with a simple statement like, “Of course I’d need to know more to do a detailed quote but pricing for that type of work will usually range between $5-$15K.”
Again, given the different perspectives on what effective sales training is and how it should/can be delivered, it sounds like he wasn’t a good prospect anyway. In other situations however, DON’T DANCE AROUND PRICE. They have a right to ask and be answered and a good sales person can give them that answer. Use a range to weed out the wrong clients and help weed in the right ones.
May 19th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
[...] trainer received a call requesting a quote for a two-day sales training. Read the original here: BtbTraining.com The price question is a tricky one. You don’t want to give a price that isn’t real but potential [...]
May 19th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Hi Alecia.
I take your points and they are well made.
The reality was this
I didn’t know what the problem was
I didn’t know what the solution was
I didn’t even know if I could be part of that solution
Fixing sales ineffectiveness is complex and rarely can training alone solve the issues. Nothing led me to believe that he grasped this, in fact, I am not sure he had any real interest in fixing anything.
I could have given the guy a daily amount, no probs. We even provide a payment based on ROI, but for me to do this, I need to know what the fix is and that he was prepared to listen.
I agree salespeople should always be honest about price where they can. However in these times, particularly for inexperienced salespeople, they need to qualify early and hard. Many, many salespeople spend so much of their time on wild goose chases.
Thanks so much for your input.
Regards,
Niall
May 19th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
As I was reading your script, I was reminded of a very similar situation I was in not long ago. I learned early on in my sales career that if I jumped everytime a “prospect” said to jump, it didn’t mean that I would close the sale. If I stick to my process which helps me develop the best possible solution for the prospect, we both end up with a profitable relationship.
When I turned down a prospect, he said to me, “I have never heard of a sales person turning away a potential client.” Somewhere deep down, I think I gained his respect.
This company may never be my clients but the good news is that I don’t want everyone to be my client. Seems weird to some to say that in this economy but I believe there is still enough business to go around. I want to work with the right clients for my business.
May 19th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Alecia,
Had this sounded like a genuine “testing the water to see if we’re in the right ballpark” enquiry I’d have agreed with you. And salespeople (in my opinion) do indeed dance around price too often. I believe it should be possible to give a range to help clients know if they are thinking in the right ballpark a lot more often than most folks do.
Even if you don’t know what their needs are, or whether you can help, if you state your assumptions you can give a ballpark. I like to tie the response to a quid pro quo request for budget information. “Well, obviously I don’t fully understand exactly what you need, or how much work it’s going to take to tailor a course for you, or even if that’s the right approach at all - but a typical 2 day course with us can range from 5 to 10 thousand pounds. Is that the sort of range you were budgeting for?” With then some follow-up questions around the budget to help qualify in/out.
I find it quite helpful to do this. My services are a lot more expensive than most of my competitors and on a few occasions I have wasted a lot of my and my potential clients time understanding their needs, building a relationship and developing a proposal only to find there’s no way they could afford me. Ever.
In this case though, the fact the guy wanted a proposal without any discussion meant it wasn’t a genuine “ballparking” request. He just wanted magic sauce. It’s almost unethical to do a proposal and quote for that sort of work as you just know it’s not going to deliver any value.
Ian
May 19th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
WOW! Great discussion guys!
I have a few things to add to the mix
David Stargel’s point is a good one, though in my eyes we’re maybe already fighting a more difficult battle at that point.
To me this is about steps, and as Niall has said this call wasn’t answered in the best of situations, and we’ve all had calls like that!! So thoughts are taking into account best practise whilst being aware that it ain’t always easy to deliver! :-S
I’m sure we’ve all heard the following: ascertain the customer’s needs, propose a matched solution, and earn the right to ask for the business. Right? And maybe add in a bit of “the customer’s understanding is our responsibility”
The GREAT thing about this post is it is familiar to any consultant, but EVEN more importantly thanks to Niall’s script we get the advantage of 20:20 hindsight and can maybe pinpoint the error. Telephone call analysis is definitely a focus and, perhaps sadly(!), a passion for me, so please indulge me!
I’m not being judgmental here (I’ve made the same mistake myself!) - but from my pov the whole sales call is over the second time Niall speaks!
i.e the “Me: Great, Let’s hold that last thought…..” part
The proposition and sales close happen all at once, WAY too quick to get the customer’s buy-in to your process! As consultants my view is we sell in steps, gotta sell the meeting first! If I get in the door, I’m pretty confident it’s a done deal. BUT that means that the real selling part is getting in the door, so we gotta sell! That sales process is the same if you are selling a premium car, or the idea of a meeting - it’s all selling.
I aim to take control, and most importantly not deliver any idea of what I do (unless they ask “credential based” questions first, which occassionally happens. In which case I give background but don’t get drawn into how I work!) and then question, question question!
Obviously it gives call control, and I also find it’s hard for them to get away, maybe because at that stage they don’t want to: I haven’t said no, and actually demonstrating my interest in HIM.
Surely we can agree that although this guy might never have buy in the end, we would get further if our response to his background info is an interested statement rather than solution? Can’t we??
example: rephase to suit your style
“Yes, times sure are tough. 20 people you say, that’s a lot of sales that need to be made!….”
Then just judge a question which a) builds credibility, b) shows interest in his situation/company and c) get’s him thinking and involves him in this conversation that we need to create
(again these might be too stylised in “my” style, but hopefully they make the point)
“Where do you get most of your leads from, I mean are these guys generating their own leads?”
or
“Can you give me a rough overview on current performance? Not prying into financials at all, but do you know for example what sort of conversion rates are they hitting at the minute?”
or
“What is your one key concern with what the salespeople are currently doing? I mean do you have any way of monitoring that?”
Move away from telling clients: “I need to know stuff in order to do a proposal”, go ahead and find out the stuff you need to do a proposal - now!! Strike while the iron is hot - he’s decided to call now, engage him now, win the meeting, win the business.
As people have said above, he wouldn’t expect his salespeople to quote, but I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t want them wasting a valuable incoming sales lead (the easy
sale!) by suggesting a meeting straight off the bat. He would want them to question the customer….and I’m pretty sure that that’s what your training will tell them….so we gotta do that thing where we practise what we preach!
As I said, we’ve all answered calls on the hoof and maybe not done our best. Personally I used to bore them to death with what I do and make things complicated….but the L&D world is greatest to me when I find new ways of applying the same age old principles. The ones that work! Never ceases to amaze me!
Useful? Thoughts? Am I talking out my ass?
Be great to hear more on this valuable topic!
May 20th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Thank you all for contributing.
Joanne, “I want to work with the right clients for my business” this is a great comment and ultimately what it came down to for me. I decided that this guy was not a right fit for me or my business. I could have chased, but I decided that I would be wasting time and money.
Ian, “It’s almost unethical to do a proposal and quote for that sort of work as you just know it’s not going to deliver any value” I am in full agreement on this, had I agreed to do so. I would have been no better than the silver bullet merchants I give out about.
Steve, excellent input and in a general sense, I agree. I could/should have handled the call better. I failed in my responsibility to make him understand that a two day course wouldn’t solve anything.
In say that, the types of questions you talk about I feel are more suitable for a face to face. I think one area where I went wrong is that I prejudged the call, in that I expected that he would agree to a meet without difficulty. In other words, I thought that if improving performance was important, he would expect me to meet him and he would expect that the solution would be more complex. The reality is that he did not and by the other providers giving him proposals over the phone - he had a different expectation to begin with.
Had I taken a different route, I would have probably secured the meet. In saying that, I remain unconvinced that this meet would have led anywhere other than the same outcome, that’s also why I didn’t want to give him a ball park fig on price.
Summary: the assumption that all business is good business is dangerous. You need to make decisions as a salesperson, should I talk to this prospect, should I try to get that meet. You have to based on informed judgement go after the people and sales that are lightly and are a good fit for you and your biz. I go back to Joanne point: I made the decison this guy was wrong for me.
May 20th, 2009 at 11:51 am
[...] On the 3rd of March, I published this post “Need Sales Training, Let’s Sit Down and Talk About it” [...]
May 20th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Niall greta post as everyone says - you know I often feel by ending the conversation by saying “just send me my fee - I won’t turn up and you will get the same results as if I did.” Ian is right when he says they are looking for a mgic sauce - or a magic wand to change behaviours in one or two days. However I don’t think any different from someone asking for the price of software or a new car. People want the most value for the least cost. And perhaps it is more about ROI. Interestingly this happened to me five years ago and lost out to a much larger company the clients came back to me last March and have been working with since then on a basis of five days a month. He admitted that what I suggested at that time was the long term solution not and short term fix
May 20th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Hey Colly,
Cheers for your input.
“just send me my fee - I won’t turn up and you will get the same results as if I did.”
LOL, I LOVE it, I am going to use this line - I promise. It’s brilliant
I have on more than one occasion lost the biz and like you gained after the other trainer f&^%ed up. in saying that, it’s still frustrating. I have also pitched for biz where a trainer has done that much damage, that they think all sales training is pie in the sky stuff.
Thanks,
Niall
May 20th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Really enjoying the comments here. Two things. While I believe that when we do quote pricing on something we provide, we should always do so with ballpark pricing. However, I don’t believe that opportunity existed here. What Mr. X wanted initially was a simple 2-day workshop. Now, its clear that Niall’s firm does not provide this (neither do we anymore by the way - pretty much generates the same results as not showing up at all!). So no reason to quote on something we don’t do. Then, when Mr. X responded to the first inquiry with the reply that he believed that the workshop would help his team “make more sales”, he is, in fact, wrong in his assumptions - so no point in quoting on that either. It would have been fruitless, and fraudulent even to quote on something that doesn’t exist - namely a 2-day workshop designed to increase sales. So I feel, that frustrating as it is, Niall’s approach was right.
The second point, is unfortunately, there are about 100 other “pretenders” lining up behind me to give Mr. X his price. They’ll come in, run a course, which could even be very enjoyable and he’ll get lots of high marks on the smiley sheet, but 6 months from now, no one will be doing anything differently, and sales either will, or will not, have increased (but it won’t have anything to do with the workshop, trust me). Then, the entire industry gets a bad rap.
Oh well, good to see so many out there with similar challenges, and taking the same approach. Keep fighting the good fight everyone!
June 10th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I believe the answer to this situation is to do two things:
1. Negotiate the sales process you would like to follow; and
2. Ask questions from the inside out which would allow you to price and propose without compromising your integrity.
First, the concept:
1. Because you have information (i.e. price), you have power for a short period of time (like 5 - 10 minutes) to negotiate how you want to proceed.
The conversation might go like this:
Mr X: Hi Niall, This is _________ __________, I am the Sales Director with ___________ ___________ What I’m looking for a two day sales training course to brush up on our selling skills. What would that cost?
Niall: I’d be pleased to help you and provide a price. (pause)In order for me to provide you with the information you require, I’d like to propose we do the following:
First, I would like to ask you a few questions about your current situation and your expectations of a sales training program; then, I would like to generate a preliminary estimate that we can discuss together;Afterwards, we can mutually decide on whether or not to pursue the discussion further. This should take no longer than 10 minutes. Does that sound reasonable?
What you have been able to do, to this point is set the table for discussion. The attributes to this approach are the following:
- You show courtesy / compliance but establish control. The buyer feels in control when you say “Does that sound reasonable?”
- You are able to draw out information about the situation.
- You demonstrate alignment to need and acknowledgement of request.
- You negotiated the selling process and set the foundation for collaboration (i.e. we can discuss)
- You set expectations in terms of process and timing and what to expect (i.e. estimate to discuss)
- You clearly qualify the buyer based on his response to your opening.
Doing it this way, you can find out more and engage the customer. The way you described it above you failed to use the power of the information you had (i.e. price) to negotiate the process going forward. You started asking questions immediately which created tension for both you and the customer.
I hope that helps to provide a different twist to a common but difficult selling situation.
June 14th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Thanks Don, I appreciate the great advice. Kind regards,Niall